I Took a Hike
Gear up for a hike like no other and discover the landscape of business, life, and the complex trails that intertwine them.
Embark on a journey with host Darren Mass and a new inspirational guest each week as they navigate steep terrain while engaging in thought-provoking conversations that unveil the intricate dance between entrepreneurship and the human spirit.
It's an exploration of wisdom, stories, and nature-filled inspiration. Lace up for an adventure where trails and tales intertwine, only on the I Took a Hike Podcast.
Interested in being a guest or sponsor?
Visit www.itookahike.com
Follow our journey here...
instagram.com/itookahikepodcast/
https://www.tiktok.com/@itookahike
https://www.linkedin.com/company/i-took-a-hike/
_____________________________________________________________________________________
I Took a Hike
Kenny Heitner - The Art of Selling a Company & Spelunking...
Get ready for an exhilarating journey with former CEO Kenny Heitner and yours truly, as we scale the metaphorical heights of managing a multi-partner business and bravely spelunk into the depths of networking and corporate culture. Drawn from Kenny's vast personal experience, we embark on a challenging path paved with long-term partnerships, the art of selling a company, and the life-altering influence of mentors. Alongside, we'll unearth a few trail jokes during our symbolic cave exploration and underscore pivotal leadership traits like trust and flexibility.
Kenny, a self-made entrepreneur, navigates us through the terrain of his own career, marked by unconventional wisdom passed down from his father and grandfather. He emphasizes the importance of delivering on promises in sales and how a strong network of business relationships is instrumental to success. He candidly shares his experience with managing multiple partners in an ever-evolving industry, shedding light on how to avoid letting disagreements tear the business apart and the role of quick decision-making.
This episode is a treasure-trove of wisdom for aspiring entrepreneurs and established business leaders alike. From Kenny's insights on career transition and personal growth, to the power of a positive outlook, there's much to learn and apply. Embrace the thrill of this dynamic conversation, full of humor, adventure, and, most importantly, invaluable business acumen. Strap in for an enlightening expedition into the mind of a seasoned business leader!
Contribute to the granola bar fund :)
Follow The Journey on Instagram
Tiktok?
Submit Feedback
Apply to be a guest
Become a Sponsor
All right, rock and roll baby.
Speaker 2:All right, kenny Heitner, are you OK with being recorded on a podcast?
Speaker 1:Yes, I am Darren Mass.
Speaker 2:Well, there goes that liability. This is. I Took a Hike. I'm your host, darren Mass, founder of business therapy group and Parktime Wilderness Philosopher. Here we step out of the boardrooms and home offices and into the great outdoors where the hustle of entrepreneurship meets the rustle of nature. In this episode, we take a deep dive with Kenny Heitner, former CEO and partner of Ben Skulski. Our topics include the role of a multi-partner CEO, determination and the essential learning lessons of mentors. We reach new heights with this epic 100th mile episode filled with a first time cave exploration. When I took a hike with Kenny Heitner, it wasn't until I embarked on this podcast journey that I realized the impact of problem solving in nature. And now I would like to help you. I invite you or your team to join me on a hike and experience business therapy, all while on the trail. Visit itookahikecom for more information on our hiking therapy and discover that much needed reset before you can take off again.
Speaker 1:Ready or not, here we go, baby.
Speaker 2:All right, minor meniscus tear, and you're about to do a challenge.
Speaker 1:The meniscus is the least of my problem. It's being almost 58 and not going to the gym enough.
Speaker 2:You're almost 58?. Yeah, look at you, you made it. I've known you for quite a while, huh.
Speaker 1:Long time. It's a good thing.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's been an experiential set of years, all right, so I'm wearing this 100th hat because this is officially my 100th mile height.
Speaker 1:Wow, well, congratulations.
Speaker 2:Thank you.
Speaker 1:Where'd you get the hat?
Speaker 2:I bought it the other day. I saw it at a store we were on we're at and it's a 100 hat. And what's this?
Speaker 1:thing. It looks like some Batman thing.
Speaker 2:If I told you who made the hat, you would think less of me.
Speaker 1:I don't know if that's possible. No, I mean that in a good way. I could never think less of you. That's not coming out right. None of that's coming out right.
Speaker 2:By the way, I will tell you, I brought a flashlight.
Speaker 1:OK, we're getting some heavy growth, whatever they call it. Oh, we're going to need a flashlight for this hike OK.
Speaker 2:We might be going cave dwelling. I hope you are not claustrophobic, and if you are, that makes a great episode.
Speaker 1:Unfortunately for you, I am not claustrophobic, not afraid of heights. What else should I not be afraid of?
Speaker 2:All right, tell me what you're afraid of.
Speaker 1:Am I afraid of?
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Snakes. Ok, I guess that's kind of like a Harrison Ford thing.
Speaker 2:I think it's natural for snakes. On one hike I saved the guess from almost stepping on a copperhead. That would have been a trip to the hospital.
Speaker 1:Yeah Well, I don't think you should record this, but you know the joke about the hikers. And they're deep into the woods and the guy gets bitten by a snake on his private parts, and so his friend says OK, let me run back and find out what we need to do to save you. And the doctor says well, you have to suck the venom out of the wound. The guy runs back to his friend. Friend says what do you say? He said he said you're going to die. Now I don't know if that's publishable, but it's an old joke.
Speaker 2:So we just I like the joke. It is definitely publishable and we could change it too. He got hit on his trail nuts. See, there's trail jokes everywhere.
Speaker 1:Yeah Well, there's jokes everywhere. The problem becomes and again I remember listening to a prior podcast with my partner who said who classified me as all these positive things, except that sometimes I say things that maybe I should have filtered like a dirty joke.
Speaker 2:This is the whole basis of the show is it is raw, real, authentic and predominantly unfiltered.
Speaker 1:Well then, I'll be a good guest, I guess.
Speaker 2:Yes, and, as I said, you were a guest by popular demand. So people want to know about the Kenny. So here you are, the Kenny, former partner of Ben Skolski, one of them, one of the four, correct. So what was that?
Speaker 1:like it was a great ride. It was a long ride, right 25 years, 25 years in marriage. Plus another year or so after we were fortunate to exit. We stuck around and, like any relationship, especially 25 years, left to right, left, you know you have your puts and pulls, your challenges, but we were a great dynamic of four very different personalities.
Speaker 2:Yes, I will attest to that. And your personality was the over the top, the loud CEO microphone. Tell the world how great you are. Agreed In a good way, in a positive way. Agreed Right, Not in an arrogant or egotistical way, but in one where you aligned with your audience.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I'm a big culture guy.
Speaker 2:Yep.
Speaker 1:And I think and I just heard a story yesterday from a large company that we did business with that's gone through its challenges and maybe their leaders weren't so culturally aligned, positive or dynamic. They have a new one and this woman was saying how wonderful to have a leader who's building a good culture and leading with positive focus. And I do think that most organizations are a reflection of their leader. And I think after we exited I saw that even more in speaking with our people who kind of missed. Now they're kind of folded into a more corporate environment and they missed that culture that we had built.
Speaker 2:Absolutely, of course they do. So. The challenge with any acquisition on either side is cultural alliance or alignment. When you acquire a company, the acquired individuals will never feel like they belong. It's natural. They were forced into this new situation. No matter how much you tell your former employees how great this will be, all the new resources and all of you are safe, those employees will never feel like they're part of the company, not at least in the beginning. It takes a long time Interesting, yeah, and there are challenges that an acquiring company has to face and get over, and all of those really stem to cultural and integration. And if you can master that, which is very difficult, you can essentially keep great people aligned and on board. Now, obviously that is our challenge in acquisition how do you keep the great people on board without losing them, and that takes time. It's no different than if you're dating someone new. You have to be patient, you have to nurture the relationship, you have to put your money where your mouth is, and that doesn't always happen and that is why, statistically, 70% 2 thirds of acquisitions fail because of the cultural mismatch.
Speaker 1:Well, I definitely see some of the challenges from where I sit, looking at the direction that's gone and I just hope for both ends the acquirer and my folks that they figure out, because we have some great people and I hope that my goal. When I was meeting with the acquirers, we had a couple of different options. We had a couple of different options. We had a couple of different options and we could have chose any one of those handful, but specifically we chose this acquirer because I felt like it was a great fit for our people.
Speaker 2:Your brand.
Speaker 1:Well, our employees, our customers, and I approached them and I said high tide rises all ships. And by us joining in with this large organization, I do and I did believe and I still hope that it will be able to better serve everyone.
Speaker 2:So I love that quote. High tide rises, all ships, you make that up.
Speaker 1:No, I don't think I made anything up, maybe here or there by accident.
Speaker 2:Like most strategic CEOs, you borrow the best.
Speaker 1:Yes, well, I think everyone in life is the journey right and you pick these things up and you don't even realize you're picking them up. And even more often I find that I didn't realize how often people pick stuff up from me. They'd come back to me and say you know, you told me this and I would say I did, and so that's really flattering and makes you feel great.
Speaker 2:So, as a former CEO, I agree with you. There are times where you're just doing your job right. You're championing a little slur there. It's a hard trail. You are the champion of your words right, hold on to the wife. You're going to have to tell the wife you're a, we're busy.
Speaker 1:She did know. Let me just take a quick second to check, and we haven't spoken this morning. Be careful, andrew, you're being recorded. I'm on the top of some mountain somewhere in Jersey.
Speaker 2:Like the record show he loves his wife.
Speaker 1:OK, love you bud. That was quick, easy. That's what 28 years of marriage will do. Case in point, whatever it is.
Speaker 2:All right.
Speaker 1:Ok, back to the back on track being a CEO.
Speaker 2:You are the champion of your words and you say a lot of stuff, right, your job is to motivate people. That's your main job.
Speaker 1:Number one priority.
Speaker 2:In a public company, number one priority is protect shareholder value. In a private company, it's to motivate the hell out of the people that align with you, and that includes customers and employees. And sometimes you say some nuggets and you don't realize what you're doing, but it is very rewarding to hear it from your people that you made a difference in their lives and you are the motivator. You are the person that inspires the most. And if you're not, don't be a CEO, quit, find another job. All right, ok, is this trail kicking your butt yet?
Speaker 1:Nope, I like it Got a little sweat going. Good, heart rate's just up a little.
Speaker 2:Well, it's nice that it's a cool day. Hopefully we will beat the rain. It is very overcast.
Speaker 1:I think. So I look quick and it said 1 PM is when the percentage of chance of rain will increase. I think we're good, unless it takes us five hours to do this hike.
Speaker 2:Only if you get bit by a copperhead and I have to figure out how to lug you out of here.
Speaker 1:Or remove the venom.
Speaker 2:Trail nuts, the jokes, the jokes are ample and plenty.
Speaker 1:Yes, they will be, hopefully All right. You've got to have humor and you've got to have fun with whatever you're doing.
Speaker 2:Well, if you're not having fun and there's no humor, I bother.
Speaker 1:I agree.
Speaker 2:Unless your personality is dull and boring, and then by all means celebrate that, enjoy your dull boringness, but not on this trail. Ok, so let's take a step back. You obviously ran a company 25 years and we've heard it from your partner's angle. What's your angle? How complex and challenging was it to have to work with three other people with egos and ownership?
Speaker 1:Very interesting word egos, ownership and, as I said a few minutes ago when we started, for sure, our differences were a significant advantage to develop and build Again. I was much more of a frontman and sales kind of person and we had two of the partners, robert, who was the engineer, and David, who was ended up being more in advisory position, and he is a very smart guy and he really was. He used to classify himself as my consigliere.
Speaker 2:He was your consigliere, the guy that took care of you, the guy that made sure that I was making good decisions, staying on track.
Speaker 1:And then, of course, we brought in Ben. Because we grew so quickly, we needed a sales professional and he was tasked with running and building ourselves, which he did wonderfully.
Speaker 2:How did you find Ben?
Speaker 1:Oh, that's a great story. You I guess we could use names right Absolutely. I'm sure you're familiar with a gentleman by the name of Joe Gillette. I know him yes, of course you do from the industry, since we were both in the same industry. Joe super guy, long time friend of mine, ran a company, gillette Global Networks at the time, which went on to be a bunch of other names and companies, and he had a holiday party. This is 20 plus years ago, probably close to 25 by now.
Speaker 2:Well, it has to be a little over, if you.
Speaker 1:oh well, that's right, ben came in after Ben came in yeah, like probably three years into it maybe, and we were at this. It was a small party downtown New York City and there was a very attractive girl on the other side of the room that one of my sales reps, who was single, was eyeing and he couldn't wait to meet her. So we find her, we chat it up with her and it ends up being Laurie Skulski that's Ben's sister, who was also in the industry. And then, of course, ben ends up coming up next to us and we start chatting and Ben was looking to do exactly what we had done, which is back in those days. At&t became Lucent, became Avaya, was going to a channel model building channel partners. We were fortunate to get one. Ben was trying to get one for himself. We said just come join us. And he did, and that's you know. It's funny again. How do things happen? You got a single guy looking at a pretty girl. Next thing, you know, you got a new partner in the business.
Speaker 2:Oh, it's amazing how the birds and the bees could be tied to business.
Speaker 1:Yes, and you know the other part of that is you got to be in it to win it right. So who needs to go to a holiday party? But you go to the party and you meet people and you never know who you're going to meet, what conversation you're going to have, which leads to more business, and I think again, what I was hopefully good at was a lot of that, was a lot of networking, making the connections and directing our business and those matters. So that's how Ben came on board.
Speaker 2:So did you enjoy the shaking hands and kissing babies or you just mentioned? Is that something where you know you have to pay to play, so you convinced yourself to do it.
Speaker 1:I think the root of it is I do enjoy it, like anything, if you do a lot of it. There are always those days when you're like all right enough, I can't go out another night.
Speaker 2:It's a job.
Speaker 1:It's a job like anything, but I think I guess I'm somewhat good at it, I would say, because I enjoyed it. If you didn't enjoy it, you're probably not so good at it. Well, without knowing your personality, type Myers-Briggs, we can kind of tell it You're at extrovert Well we've done those Myers-Briggs over the years when we had our management team, so that we can learn to work better with each other. And, yes, off the charts on those things.
Speaker 2:That is awesome and that is a strong characteristic that it's not necessary as a CEO to be an extrovert, but it's pretty beneficial and if you find that you have a vision in a company or an idea and you're not an extrovert, make sure your number two person is Right and delegate those roles accordingly. But it is a strong power to be able to command a room and network.
Speaker 1:So you were asking about the partnership. So we had David Blau, who really was the guy that had the opportunity and brought us together with Robert, who was the engineer that he said he had worked with. That could fix anything, and that is without question, true. And he brought a lot of value, especially in the early days, but always even to the later days, in being able to make sure whatever we needed at the end of the day from a technical standpoint got addressed. Okay, so he was really on head of the technical bended sales and I steered the ship. I made sure that we were. I did my best to make sure we were changing and evolving and moving in the direction that we needed to Cause. As you know, you know, I had a conversation just yesterday and I explained that we had a company that focused on telephone systems to start and then, of course, over the years, as the world's changed, we had to diversify more into more of a managed service company IT, infrastructure, cybersecurity. And he said, well, really, congratulations that you changed. And I said well, the truth is, from day one we had to change cause. Even in that small focus of telecom which you're very familiar with, it was always changing right when we started, the fax machine was the latest, greatest, you know. Then voicemail today people don't even use voicemail. So everything from a from technology, as you know, you have to always be changing and that was one of the biggest challenges that we had in our company having to change and evolve and figure out what's next. Not too fast, don't go well, it's bleeding edge, don't go too slow. So I would think that was one of the one of the biggest challenges of my job was, you know, so I don't think that's the challenge of your job.
Speaker 2:specifically, that's the role of a CEO knowing how and when to pivot. Right, Every business needs a pivot. Those who don't pivot and pivot pivot well, they fall apart. Right, yes, Beautiful right.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but I'm saying which, I don't see a trail marker.
Speaker 2:Oh, we're going to find it, don't worry, so wait a minute. This is very appropriate. This is apropos. We have to pivot.
Speaker 1:We're at a point where we're not so sure which direction to go.
Speaker 2:So what? As a CEO, as an experiential CEO, what would you do in this situation? We are at like 10 forks in the road, no trail markers. What's our pivot?
Speaker 1:This looks like it's been walked and we are on a trail, quote unquote. So we'd follow that, maybe, but that's going down. This one looks, maybe, more in the right direction. I'm gonna look. I'm gonna take a few steps and look to see if we can find a blue marker. How's that? Is that cheating or is that fair? That is one answer. I mean you gotta look for the markers, right? That's the key.
Speaker 2:Whether it's a trail or here. There's one other obvious answer.
Speaker 1:If the blue marker's facing that way, is that?
Speaker 2:If we go back. Do you want me to give you the answer?
Speaker 1:Yes, yes, Of course you're the expert.
Speaker 2:I take expert's advice. You got it Perfect as an experiential CEO. You don't have to be the smartest in the room. Lean to your team.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:And ask who's got the experience. So I'll take this one. I've got the map in my hand. Let's go this way.
Speaker 1:The right tool makes any job easy, right that's right.
Speaker 2:Use your resources. So we are experienced enough to realize that the trail kind of cuts off. But here's our next marker. Look at that, Yep.
Speaker 1:Good work, Darren.
Speaker 2:That's the perfect lesson right there.
Speaker 1:Good work.
Speaker 2:This is gonna be a great episode, I can just tell All right, so let's get back on the trail of your business. You obviously picked your partners right. You knew who you were gonna work with and I will say, regardless of any challenges that you ever faced, it was a great working relationship. You hit the holy grail. You sold your business.
Speaker 1:Yes. But let's back up and say I picked my partners, but really we dated very quickly and you don't know who your partners really are just from two or three meetings. You hope you use your instinct and your best guess, but and I was very young, so I was fortunate that I got good partners, but there's no sure thing with that. So I think that's as much a life, a bunch of luck and maybe a bunch of gut instinct.
Speaker 2:Got a role. Yeah, so you do create your own luck. This is Sage words of wisdom, repeated not only by me, but by everyone. You create your own luck why? Because you put yourself in situations where lucky scenarios are presented right. Right, by being the head of a company, you're going to naturally attract good people that want to be with you, right? So you're putting yourself in lucky situations and so are they. So, working in a partnership of four that had to face some challenges, some challenges which we heard in episode two with Ben Skolski. So let's get your opinion and your view on some of your biggest challenges.
Speaker 1:Well, I think, when it came to the partnership and I think you have to be careful here, but you know the thing is and we'll talk a little bit later I guess you'll ask me what I'm doing. I'm maybe starting a new partnership and one of the first conversations we had was about staying in your lane and egos right, and we agreed that we would have to make sure any egos were in check and that we stayed in our lane, and I think that there were look, there were some challenge with people staying in their lanes Mostly not. I think the partnership again really worked very strongly, and especially in the times when we needed each other. I think, as time went on some of these, it's like a rock, like a great rock band. Everybody wants what they want and you're doing it a long time and sometimes people change, things change, but I don't think you could ask for much more, whatever obstacles there always are gonna be. So if we look at who did what wrong or who may have slowed us down, you gotta also look at how they helped speed it up and try to remember those times. So, of course, there could have been an easier, better path at times where people maybe one of the partners or so were obstinate or obtuse or whatever the words you want, or didn't stay in their lanes, but then you gotta look back to how many times they really helped rise, raise the company and, I guess, appreciate that. So again, how do I answer the question? Any long-term partnership, whether it's one person or four, is gonna have its ups and downs and, like a marriage, you gotta try to look to the good times, remember those and try to reel that back in. And you have to be flexible and you have to be willing to give. And I think again to my horn. One of my better traits is my flexibility and I don't really stand firm on most things. I like to listen, hear a lot of different people what they say, or even, just in this case we talk about the partners what they say, and then I guess, as the CEO, you have to make the final decision. That's right. And as long as you get to buy in or they don't undermine you, then the partnership works. And yes, we had a time or two where maybe that's in question where a person didn't agree with what the CEO was saying or and did what they wanted anyway, and that's dangerous and that hurts.
Speaker 2:Are you referencing from your partner's standpoint?
Speaker 1:Yes, referencing real life in our 25 years. There were times. How did you deal with that?
Speaker 2:Hey listener, thanks for hiking along with us. Discover more episodes at italkahikecom, or to recommend an adventurous guest, apply to be a sponsor, discover books along the trail, or to simply drop us a line. How do I deal with that? So let's peel back a layer here. So you and your partners were each 25% owner, so you had equal equity right. So where was the tiebreaker if it was a 50-50 split on the decision?
Speaker 1:The interesting thing is we never really in the beginning formalized that. But I kind of stepped in and said look, as the CEO, I'm in charge of steering the ship. I need to have that final say. And my partners in general said, okay, well, you can be the tiebreaker. And so we made from consensual?
Speaker 2:Was that in written agreement or verbal?
Speaker 1:I don't believe it was ever written, but it really was significantly agreed upon consensually. They were like, okay, what else are we gonna do? That's a good plan. So yeah, again, I think the idea we had a consultant. I don't know if you ever knew Larry Kesslin and Chris Woods. They not Woods. Whatever you can edit that, chris Miller, chris, something or other, who knows?
Speaker 2:I might not, I might not, we might leave that at. They just say, they're okay.
Speaker 1:Larry was the louder one, like me, and we were doing great in the first five years in the business. Six, seven years we took the management team of 10 up to the mountains like this and we had a retreat, we did Myers-Briggs stuff and a bunch of other things and we had a whole wall full of strategy and we had to pick and choose when we wanted. But at the very end the consultant said look, because at that time we were kind of running like a law firm, we were all kind of we were equal partners, we were. And he said you need a singular leader to drive, to steer. And that was for me a big, pivotal moment. And I said, if everyone else agrees, of course I had the title but I really wanted their buy-in I'll give my everything to be that leader.
Speaker 2:Okay. So I love that theme and you, I will say you had a great consultant from that standpoint, because this is true, this is true in life there always needs to be some figurehead, someone with the charisma that you look up, to, that you respect their decision, to be able to be the tiebreaker or lead the ship. There's a reason why the captain on a ship that is sinking is the last one standing right. That's a responsibility, and the same thing in a business. If you don't have a agreed upon leader, you're only gonna tear the business apart. Right, you need that captain to make that decision, and you know, having a partnership in business is a big challenge. It has a lot of perks, but, like a marriage, it could be torn apart. That's why you do need to have that clear, decisive leader that everyone agrees upon. So you had mentioned, though, there were a couple situations where there was not consensus. You came to a conclusion and one of your partners still did the opposite. How'd you deal with that?
Speaker 1:You know, I hate to say you move on, you work through it. Look again dirty laundry. Here. One of them comes to mind, a significant one, towards the end of our relationship or the end of our partnership, where we were trying to put a particular person in a particular position, change the organization a bit and one partner kind of undermined the situation and it really had a beyond significant effect on our going forward partnership Cause another one of them wouldn't let it go and was very, very bothered by it and the loss of trust and loss of respect and it really affected our ability to work together as four partners.
Speaker 2:So I can make some assumptions. I won't stay in them out loud cause. Without definitive evidence it doesn't make sense to have vocal assumptions, but I think I know which partner couldn't let it go.
Speaker 1:And, by the way, everyone's got right there their personality and their pros and the cons, and you could say that maybe that decision was more ethical thing in where this person said I can't work with somebody that would undermine a partner in his perception of perspectives.
Speaker 2:How close to the decision to sell the company was that disagreement and those feelings and emotions.
Speaker 1:It? Yes, it's a great question. We sold the year and a half ago, but I would say for at least five years we were discussing that. We had a long partnership. That was maybe taking the point where we should look to make changes. The industry was so. That was a very big part of it. So, yes, and then the industry also, we thought, was changing, although somehow we always seemed to change with it and do well, and so between our ages. Another funny little tidbit is I met the consultant through a peer group. I was 30 years old when we started CTI, so maybe I was 33 or four. And he's talking about the process and how when you're 50 years old you might wanna exit. And I'm thinking that's like when kids learn about the Revolutionary War or even maybe today World War II or Vietnam, and they go. That has no real relationship bearing on me. That's a whole universe away and in those days I was thinking that's a universe away. But then you become 50 and you go. Okay, it's exactly what they said.
Speaker 2:It's like coming up to your parents. Well, you wanna mitigate risk at that point? Right, You're in the last third.
Speaker 1:Right, so fully true. So I think between the ages of most of the partners like Ben is a little younger and where we were in a partnership, it just it was time and we, before COVID, we're kind of dancing with the idea and then I think COVID hit and it accelerated our desire to make a change.
Speaker 2:COVID was the nail of humanity, ha Right. So I think all of these situations played very well. A lot of business owners, when they do make the decision to sell their business, it's not immediately. It's not hey, great idea, let's sell the business. If the business is doing well, then you probably don't entertain that thought unless the offer is insanely good. But if the business has challenges partnership challenges, customer challenges, process challenges, growing pains then it piles up. And then finally there's that last moment where you're like you know what we're doing, it, we're selling, we're out. Sounds like you guys face that.
Speaker 1:So the one interesting perspective was, although mentally we felt we had all these challenges, we still had our best years, the last couple of years. We're very strong financially, but I think for me financially- though doesn't mean personally. Right. And for me, for me personally, it had been 25 years doing much of the same and then having to, in the same funny conflict much of the same but still having to change, which is part of doing the same. I was really ready for the next step and I think, by the way, we were very fortunate timing and just everything really worked out as well as we could have hoped.
Speaker 2:Well, you put yourself in those lucky scenarios. So others were following you in your career and and you know timing in the industry all lined up right and obviously we ended up selling a business, right. Yes, going this way up the hill Told you, this is not an easy cake walk.
Speaker 1:I'm loving it, though I'm loving it.
Speaker 2:Good. This is very therapeutic for you.
Speaker 1:Yeah, well, to go on a nah, I'm fine to go on a tangent. I didn't grow up so far from here. I grew up in Suffolk, new York, which is probably 15 minutes, 20 minutes north, and my backyard looked like this oh, that's great.
Speaker 2:So this is normal for you, yep.
Speaker 1:So as a as not anymore now. I.
Speaker 2:Coming back.
Speaker 1:We're bringing back childhood, but you're bringing me back to something that I'm not uncomfortable or unfamiliar with.
Speaker 2:That is, that is good. So you have traversed these paths, so to say.
Speaker 1:Yes, these types of paths Great.
Speaker 2:Yes, alright, so walk us through the sale of your business. Was it a lengthy process or how did that?
Speaker 1:look. So before COVID. So so CTI, the company that we ran, actually did business globally and the way we did it was through a group called Aura Alliance, which was a brilliant creation of my friend, tony Parrish from London, where the product that we sold, the Viya, was difficult to implement on a global basis. So if you had a hedge fund in New York and they needed to be in Singapore and Dubai and London and Paris, how do you get that installed? And the answer is Tony would take, had created an organization where you had one company from each country and we created an alliance, built trust and put in standards so that if I sold an opportunity and out of New York, but it was global, I could count on either a centralized desk with the Aura Alliance or just using the other partners. Okay, why was I telling you this? That's a problem I have. Why was I telling you this?
Speaker 2:Oh, the sale, the sale. So what did you say?
Speaker 1:Do we have some ADD? Yeah, no question. Diagnosed, if you, my wife likes to say. If I can only see inside your brain, I have a focus problem, for sure, and the spinning things flashing on my head are tough to control.
Speaker 2:This is something that's really interesting and everyone's tired of me saying that I have ADD so I'll stop saying but except for that time. But I've noticed everyone, then just about everybody that I've taken out on a hike and we've done an episode with that I have deemed successful, not me personally saying blessed, you are successful, but just successful for a story. Have all had or experienced ADD, adhd. So that's interesting. It's kind of proving a point in a way. Small sample size for any science major or engineer here.
Speaker 1:Well, maybe that the mind is always looking at ten different things and moving fast and and that kind of helps when you're building a business or developing this type of stuff. That's exactly right and that's why, again, I had David, who's very bright, but he was much more grounded and focused and he would keep me on track. But back to how did we sell the company? So my friend Tony was, as I like to say, the Kenny Hightner of London and he had a company in addition to the Oral Alliance which ended up selling a private equity roll-up group, and they wanted to get to the US and they said, kenny, we want you and let's see if we can acquire CTI. And that was right before COVID, and then it's kind of stalled. At COVID we had gotten all our numbers, we were now preparing for this, so give us some time. And we had a great CFO, andrew Conti, at the time, and so we had our stuff together a little bit, maybe more than we had in the past, where we were a lifestyle business, but we were starting to get our books ready for sale.
Speaker 2:Okay, explain a lifestyle business.
Speaker 1:Well, is the IRS listening?
Speaker 2:If I get to the level of IRS listening, then we could check a box. The lifestyle.
Speaker 1:Business means maybe you're not running it as let's. Let's pick the right words financially, black and white. You're creating a business that can provide for the partners. A lifestyle. A lifestyle Okay.
Speaker 2:Versus a growth business which is very focused on that P&L, on, you know, black and white accounting or gap accounting, you know, making sure that every dollar spent has at least a multitude in return. Right, okay.
Speaker 1:Very clear and okay anyway. So we were kind of, you know, setting the teapot to whistle and so. But things were on hold because of COVID and then, as we got a year or two of the COVID, that group came back to me and said we shouldn't have waited, let's do this. So we started back with them.
Speaker 2:By the way, you are blessed that they came back. Yes, that did not happen in more cases than not.
Speaker 1:Yes, and they're great people and I would have been happy to do the deal with them and work with them because they really they're good friends and wonderful people. However, david my still consigliere, years later said look, we can't just look at one buyer. So we didn't go wide. But we, we entertained a couple of different opportunities. One was a gentleman, very smart, very capable, who had done a truck roll up. He was a private equity guy and looking for the next great thing and what have made us the platform? I didn't think we would be the best platform and I certainly was a little tired and I wasn't really looking to be that CEO. Maybe I had a little insecurities about being that CEO.
Speaker 2:Insecurities in actuality or more, you were burnt out.
Speaker 1:I think it was a little bit of each Little fear you know again, I heard one of your prior podcast where the gentleman was talking about forget the word he used. You know where you have to. You know walk. You know talk the talk before you walk the walk. If they have that belief, what was the word? Do you remember the term he used? I forget.
Speaker 2:Chutzpah.
Speaker 1:No, no, it was more, whatever, anyway. So I didn't. You know that was the richest deal, but I didn't love that deal. For me personally and or again, our partners were, we were challenged at that point, so for us to be the platform may not have been, in my opinion, the best route. Okay and then we had another opportunity come to us, which was a billion dollar conglomerate that we, in my opinion, could just snap into. They did much of what we did, but, as I talked about you know, high tire rising old boats, they did products that we wanted to get into, that we weren't doing. They were doing the things we were doing, but they had, you know, more resources. So I thought it would be a terrific fit, and so we negotiated with all three my friends. They kind of bailed out because financially they weren't able to compete. This is the right way.
Speaker 2:Let's pause here for a second. Continue with the story.
Speaker 1:And so you know, I pushed the partners that I thought this company, new Era technology, who was acquiring companies just like us, we'd snap in and it would be good for us, good for our people, good for our customers. And we went to. Things move pretty quick, only a few months. We went to there's the bugs. We went to the CEO. We said look, we, we really want to be part of you guys, but you're not the the richest deal, you don't have to beat it, you just have to meet it. If you agree to the that number, we'll sign today. And he said give me five minutes. It's a great story, I love this. And we exited the conference room, the boardroom, and he did some quick math, I think it was a minute and a half. He called us back in. He said done, but but the difference between what he was offering us and what the we were asking would be an earn out that we'd have to prove the company. And we accepted fair and generous and and good and we fortunately crushed the earn out.
Speaker 2:That is awesome. How long was the earn out?
Speaker 1:period. It was 24 months but it had started. We were acquired in December. They counted the full year before and it was one of our best years. So it was really great because we got the benefit of being able to keep the revenue profits from that year and selling it and getting credit for it. So it was 24 months and I would say we we beat the numbers by probably over 50 percent.
Speaker 2:That's insanely great.
Speaker 1:It was insanely great and it was great for them and great for us and you were able to retire. Well, don't tell my wife, I'm retired, that's a, that's a contentious situation, all right, let's take a quick pause here.
Speaker 2:Okay, we're halfway through. Easy, not even do it twice. All right, good, I am finding I'm looking for the one surprise I have, so I'm just gonna walk ahead this way. If you want to join me, there is a surprise. It's your long lost family. That's so far, so good. This is a beautiful, is there a?
Speaker 1:cave. Is that the surprise? I don't want to ruin your surprise, but we're going to a cave.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, we're going into a cave Down there. That is not it. Oh wait, it is it, oh shit.
Speaker 1:Well, this is good. I'm going to Utah with my son, but it's flooded, oh bummer.
Speaker 2:Well, we're gonna have to hike it again when?
Speaker 1:are we going through the cave or just in and out?
Speaker 2:we were going to go through. Oh, we're not now, all right, so let's do some personal exploring. What got you to where you are today? You are obviously a charismatic leader, and we could absolutely say charismatic. You've led your people. So how did you wind up here? What was growing up looking like?
Speaker 1:So again, I grew up about 20 miles from here, in kind of a suburban out post of New York City, 30 miles from the city. My dad was a New York City school teacher, up in Washington Heights that's a challenging area, for sure. So my dad was a city boy back this way Was a city boy who dreamt to be a country boy. We were all his cousins and everyone else were becoming doctors and lawyers and city sophisticates. He wanted nothing more than to be a truck driver and travel the country or have a farm. So he moved from Q Gardens, queens, to Spring Valley, new York, where he bought just a normal house. But a few years later he decided that he wanted more and he bought a five-acre plot that was a rundown house and an underdeveloped piece of property. He spent his time before he went to work in the morning, from 5 am to 7 am, rebuilding the house.
Speaker 2:That was his dream.
Speaker 1:Doing his dream. We had a pond and a stream and woods. Just like I say, this is natural to me.
Speaker 2:Did he ever explain why he wanted to be a country boy?
Speaker 1:He just was different. He passed this past year, a few months ago. What was the word they used? He was a nonconformist for sure. He marched to the beat of his own drum. He didn't care what people said or did. He really was a diverse guy that he recycled in the 70s. Our house was solar heated and he did so many different things Because he worked in the inner city. He would take his 14-year old students up to the farm and they became like brothers and sisters to us. They would work. Of course again, you'd say today that would never happen. You can't put your students to work, you cannot do that, but for them it was the greatest experience. They got out of the inner city and they got to experience this. And, yes, they raked and they cut trees.
Speaker 2:So my father? Yes, Was he saving them?
Speaker 1:Was he saving them? Yeah, you mean, was it more for him or for them? It was more for them.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, no, I wasn't going down the road of more for him. I meant these are inner city kids. Washington Heights in those days was extremely poor and extremely dangerous. Correct, Right. So these are inner city kids that had. You know, I'll go out on a limb and say predominantly no future.
Speaker 1:Yeah, many of them didn't live through high school. They were killed and they were just, you know. Yes, it was very. It was not a good place and a good time.
Speaker 2:So he was a genuinely awesome human being and by taking these kids out, he was saving them. In a way, he was showing them.
Speaker 1:He was enlightening them maybe, yeah.
Speaker 2:And do you know if any of these students are still around?
Speaker 1:You know that's a great question. I think at this point we're not in touch, but for many years, yeah, they were. Some of them were like family and did well.
Speaker 2:Good, so there you go. So he was a savior. He was a Mr Holland in a way.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean he spent his life working in summer camps and with children and never drank or smoke and was always doing something productive, unlike his son. So I got a lot of things from him. One son, one son, two, two, two older sisters I have.
Speaker 2:All right. So you got beat up by your sisters.
Speaker 1:Well, my you know my father and I said this at his funeral. It takes credit for a great relationship I have with my sisters because he said he created a common enemy in himself so that we'd have to bond together. He was tough. He was tough on us. You know kids had to. Kids got to eat fruit loops and on Saturdays and watch cartoons. I had to go out in the yard and work Good, and he was always had. You know, he was a teacher but he had 10 jobs. He was a caretaker for a camp and a bus driver, whatever. So he was always making me work with him. So work ethic was never an issue for me.
Speaker 2:So he instilled a great mind in his son to really have to rise to the top.
Speaker 1:Well, he instilled a work ethic that said, you know, he was always working, he didn't. He didn't care to party and and, whatever, relax, he was always working. So, yeah, so, and and, and, and he was different and it made me different. And I went to a very fancy summer camp where the kids were wealthy and they had fancy things that I had nothing, to be honest, and my dad wore a rope belt because it held his pants up. What more would he need? And so there was definitely adversity in my youth challenges, which I think helped me quite a bit, because if life was easy, you know that never, never helps you survive or build or become a better person. So life wasn't so easy as a youth, but you know, I learned a lot from him. I could fix anything. I like to say, you know, part of my success, which today is a funny thing, because success so often today is having an uber focus and being great at one thing to rise above. But my grandfather actually used to say be good at everything, but don't be the best. Everybody's out to knock down number one.
Speaker 2:Wasn't that the premise of Jack of all trades, master of none?
Speaker 1:That's exactly so. That's what I really am real saying right, right.
Speaker 2:So better to be a. What was it a? Jack of many and master to none. Yeah, well, in survivalist sense.
Speaker 1:That's true In business. Is it true today, you know? Again, I think some of the most successful companies really rise above because they do something in particular really well, and if you do too much, you may not be great at anything, and that was always a challenge with us too. Right, how diverse did we go?
Speaker 2:Wait one sec. There is another cave. That I mean I'm communicating with someone else who has hiked this trail.
Speaker 1:Is it over here? Is this a cave?
Speaker 2:No, that's the one that we first saw. Oh don't wait, we're not lost.
Speaker 1:We came around yeah.
Speaker 2:There we go. Oh, it was right in front of us the whole time.
Speaker 1:We're right behind us.
Speaker 2:Yes, all right, sorry, and we're back.
Speaker 1:So we were talking about, I guess, how I got to where I am, what were the motive, what were the factors? Talked about a bunch about my dad and I think in closing that my you know my dad, who you know again, felt taught me a lot of these other things, was never an academic, even though he was a teacher, didn't even think I needed to go to college, which in those days was relatively unheard of, right For today, of course, a lot of people don't. they stood their startups and everything else. But so again, I heard one of your podcasts where the guy was talking about his dad and expectations. My dad wanted me to be a cop or a teacher or you know, just make sure that you had a stable existence. He didn't look for me to cure cancer. I was a political science major. I went to a college I won't name the name, but it was a state school and half the two thirds of the kids dropped out. You know, at Harvard, everybody competes here, everybody messed around. So but I made it, graduated, moved to Washington DC, worked a little in political arena. You know, as I thought through what we would talk about and you know some of the challenges you might have asked me about. I never took one singular business course, or economics or finance or accounting, none. And I I never dreamt about being a CEO or even being in business.
Speaker 2:Well, I don't think many CEOs have that dream either. I think there's some sort of challenge, predominantly with authority or learning, right that that that buds an entrepreneur to say you know what? I don't want to work for anyone else, I want to work for myself. You know my story. My grandfather in the, in his 40s, decided to quit his accounting job and start his own accounting firm. And I asked him in his 90s, unfortunately after my grandma's funeral, I got to know him and I said well, poppy, why, why did you decide to go and start work for yourself, working for yourself? And he said because I thought I was a fucking idiot and I couldn't stand working for somebody Right. So it's, there's some sort of innate. I'm tired of listening to people that are telling me to do the wrong things Right. And either, if that comes at a young age, that sparks an entrepreneurial mindset.
Speaker 1:Well, I think I had very little direction. I came back to New York after well again, I, I I was always working a lot that work ethic. So I I love to tell a story. I'll tell it quickly, you can edit it out. As a freshman in college they had a dance marathon raising money for muscular dystrophy, and all the other kids went to. It was the state school. Nobody had money. Give me a dollar, give me whatever, 50 cents, and let's raise money. And I went to the businesses in town and I said I'll wear your shirt, I'll hand out your menu, give me 50 bucks, 300 bucks. And I raised the most money and want a trip to spring break. And I met the owner of the bar in town and I said to him look, I don't know how to, barton, I was 18. But if you ever need help, keep my number. And they passed the bottle bill, the recycling bill, and he called me a year or two later and said we need someone to pick up. We do 80 cases of beer on import night. Come, your first job, your job would be to pick up the bottles. And I did that and it got me in. And then I became a bar back in a bartender.
Speaker 2:Were you good at it.
Speaker 1:Oh, my, one of my. I had two. My two favorite jobs were waterski instructor at summer camp and bartender bartender in general. So I did that in college when I graduated and I worked in DC. I worked for a political consulting company, got paid $17,000 a year this is 1988, 89, which isn't enough to pay your rent. So I bartended at Georgetown at night. I worked so much that I would set my alarm clock for seven I don't know if it was seven am or seven pm. I'd have to nap after my desk job before going downtown and so I was down bartending and that didn't work out well. It just wasn't the right fit. Not the bartending, but the political consulting. I came back to New York and I had a quick job with MetLife, learned about sales because everyone always says said you are a natural sales person, though I don't believe in that, I think you are, I feel like you are. Well, I think the misnomer is what does it take to be successful in sales? And I don't believe this. Oh, you have to be a good talker. I think you have to, and Ben Skulski kind of taught me this. You have to be able to deliver. You know, ben, I love to tell the story to Ben. When I first met him, showed me how he would meet with a prospect and he'd set an expectation so that he could deliver on it. Right, he'd leave that meeting and always try to leave that meeting with something to do, something to fulfill for the customer, so that he could do it and come back to the customer and prove that he could take care of business, trust building, trust building and most people don't trust right away.
Speaker 2:If you want someone's business, you have to do something for them. In a way, you become indebted, where your prospective client becomes indebted because you've delivered for them.
Speaker 1:Right and you prove that you can deliver on what your promise is yes. So I think that a great salesperson isn't about the ability to talk which is this misnomer right? It's the ability to deliver and be there and build that trust for your customer. I think if any of us go anywhere to buy something, ian, you could have a talky-talky, chatty salesperson. But you have to trust. See the trust. You have to have that leap of faith to buy from them.
Speaker 2:That's right. Talking isn't sales. Right, delivering upon promises. We're going one above building trust, his sales, which is obviously challenged today if you're not in front of the customer.
Speaker 1:Yes, yeah, I feel. My son is working for the company that we sold to and in sales and he's doing well, but I feel for him because he's not in that face-to-face as much as he could be. It's a different world and I think it's harder today than it was then.
Speaker 2:Hey listener, thanks for hiking along with us. Discover more episodes at hightoka-hikecom, or to recommend an adventurous guest, apply to be a sponsor, discover books along the trail, or to simply drop us a line.
Speaker 1:So we were talking about getting to, I guess in a business sense, where we are. So I moved back to New York. I work from that life selling life insurance. It was a terrible job for me. I had no interest. You were in a box, you were locked. I wasn't sophisticated, I barely had any money. Who am I to like manage someone's money or put them in financial products? But it was great training. It was great. What are we looking at here?
Speaker 2:All this, it's a quartz, mine, I see it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, amazing Is that what they make watches from.
Speaker 2:Yeah, all these chunks of quartz site. Sorry, I learned this when we picked out countertops. Quartz is man-made. Quartz site is the natural stone. Ah yeah, okay.
Speaker 1:So go work for a met life, get great sales training, make 100 calls a day. Go into people's homes, very uncomfortable, talking about their money and their life when you're 23 years old and it wasn't for me so, fortunately. My dad had a friend that was in telecom and I joined his company.
Speaker 2:Ah, little. What was the company selling? Was it phone systems? Phone systems, okay.
Speaker 1:But actually you're going to like this one. This will be more succinct for you maybe than the audience, but it was a 1990-ish and I actually had an offer from him that I declined and I put my friend into the job and the job he had had what we call an interconnected phone system company and 1990-ish wasn't a very good year financially in the economy and I didn't even know that his company had gone chapter 11. I didn't even understand what chapter 11 was at 23 years old.
Speaker 2:I don't think many people understand it's restructuring, not out of business.
Speaker 1:I saw these checks that said DIP, debt or possession. Didn't even know it, but anyway, very small company. But Herb Hirsch, who became a mentor to me. The owner was very different than my father and showed me the other side of life, where my father was a very simple kind of down to earth guy, didn't like fancy things. He was different. Let's take a breath here. Beautiful.
Speaker 2:You are out of breath, my friend.
Speaker 1:Well, we just went up a couple of flights of stairs?
Speaker 2:Yeah, a few of them. Look at this view.
Speaker 1:This is great. So I don't like the job and I give it to my friend. I had some other things. I was working on, whatever, but then I said you know what? I'm going to come join. And what was the job? Well, they had built a customer base, although they were in chapter 11 and people weren't buying phone systems because it was a recessionary time. But people always loved to save money. So the industry had just deregulated long distance, and the first was my brain, the first resale, what do they call it with the C?
Speaker 2:C like.
Speaker 1:No, when you consolidate what's the word?
Speaker 2:Consolidation.
Speaker 1:Not coming to me. No, the first, whatever resale AT&T.
Speaker 2:Oh man, I felt like we were playing this anagram game, yeah let's edit this down.
Speaker 1:So the first so the industry had just deregulated from long distance. A carrier and AT&T created something called software defined network which allowed large companies to not be in the same location but combine their billing for a better discount. And somebody figured out that you could resell that and make a money. So he took his telecom customers and decided he would. He didn't own his own aggregator, that's the word. Okay. It was the first aggregator and close to a C. Not a C. He wasn't a C word. And it that out. So he hired us to call again, make a hundred calls a day. Call customers hey, I could save you money in your long distance and you still get AT&T. But the problem was in those days AT&T Apple Pie, you know baseball, yep you know, and God you know you didn't mess with those and people would tell me they were going to report me to the police and they'd hang up on me and curse me out. How dare you? You can't sell me AT&T and save me money Because really people didn't trust anybody Anybody but AT&T for their you know carrier Unbeknownst to them. Unbeknownst to them, they were paying.
Speaker 2:As they still paid $14 a month for that rental phone.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and they paid, you know, 40 cents a minute, full minute increments, which people from the business may not understand.
Speaker 2:That word, trust, is loosely defined.
Speaker 1:Yeah, anyway. So we started hammering the phones. My buddy quit didn't love it, I stuck with it and the problem was it really was true, we saved the money, but it took months because AT&T didn't have their act together and the billing was messed up. So I ended up having to pivot and not just do that sell phone systems Cave. We found our cave. We're here.
Speaker 2:Let's hope there's no bears, so there might be Sorry to interrupt such a great story of.
Speaker 1:Wow.
Speaker 2:I can't be it. That's one of them, but I can't be it.
Speaker 1:That's the cave to nowhere.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's. That's an empty minor hole that shall not go in there, but we're close.
Speaker 1:A little tease, that's all.
Speaker 2:Second guessing your choices. No loving this. Much like navigating a business. This is adventure. This actually is a truly hiking episode right here.
Speaker 1:Anyone that'll listen to me for two hours. You know kudos.
Speaker 2:Well, I've always enjoyed working with you, thank you. That's one thing. I am thankful that we did finally connect and do business together, simply because it was very prosperous.
Speaker 1:Yeah, darren, you ran a great company and very few people in that industry, the carrier industry, were able to do what you did and the way you did it. You know, jumping around we tell the story that in the early days of CTI so we would sell phone systems and then we would add on things like carrier services, like you had, and this is again 20 plus years ago we went through a period where all the carriers were so bad we decided not to do it, to sell it. But then we realized that our customers would be angry when their carrier service didn't work and couldn't really decipher the difference between us and the carrier. So we might as well sell it, even if they stunk and get paid. Right, we were suffering the pain anyway, but that led us to a lot of carrier partners and I can honestly say that mass communications was the best you knew. You had the right approach, the right team and it was great.
Speaker 2:Well, I appreciate that, as you were gliding down this hillside, grabbing onto a tree and not slipping, that was the best plug I could have gotten, except I don't have the company anymore, so thank you.
Speaker 1:But listen, you still have the memory and you still get the kudos and it really was right, prosperous for us and you, because you did it right.
Speaker 2:I appreciate that it was, as you know, in running a company, a very hard job to make sure that everything was marching and going in the right direction in such a challenging, un-forsaking industry.
Speaker 1:Yes, because you only had limited control and you had to manage it still to make your customers happy. As you were working. Oh wow, it's beautiful.
Speaker 2:I appreciate how trusting you are. Oh stupid.
Speaker 1:At any moment.
Speaker 2:I'd be like hey, can he piece out? Remember that time you screwed Ben? That is not the show. All right, I'm going to do this with all this gear on my back now.
Speaker 1:Well, you're the younger, stronger of the two Fitter.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'll give you that one.
Speaker 1:Yeah, put there. I think you can kind of slide onto that.
Speaker 2:All right, so we could definitely get out this way.
Speaker 1:Come back up this way. There's a problem.
Speaker 2:Oh yes, sure yeah, you'll have to push me up here, that's what.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you know you want to go first. Yeah, that's fine, I'm again. No ego here.
Speaker 2:You hold the flashlight and you do the recording.
Speaker 1:All right, we're recording Flashlight cave, Darren, there's a two. Let's hope it's not wet and slippery.
Speaker 2:There is a joke in there, slippery. Yes, so your footing should be light and use your arms.
Speaker 1:Got it Okay, you made it look easy.
Speaker 2:Woo 100. It's got to be a really interesting episode.
Speaker 1:I think I'm just going to go gently now. I'm just going to hop down.
Speaker 2:Did it All right Now. I appreciate this effort. We could have easily just made it easier by crawling on the floor. Oh, I love it, but where's the challenge in that?
Speaker 1:Well, we know we can always go out that way.
Speaker 2:All right. So how are we going to do this? We are going to record our journey through here. This is going to be really freaking cool. Ready Yep, here we go. This is creepy AF.
Speaker 1:There's no bears in here, man, I like bears, but I don't feel like me.
Speaker 2:Definitely possible. There's some bears in here. All right, you hold the flashlight.
Speaker 1:You know they say you don't have to be fast, just faster than the guy you're with. I can guarantee I'm beating you. I would probably agree.
Speaker 2:This is nuts.
Speaker 1:Hold on a sec, okay.
Speaker 2:You're not very good at the flashlight.
Speaker 1:You know, my father growing up used to tell me that all the time I always we fixed our own cars, I always held the flashlight and he said my Edd would kick in, I'd be looking away.
Speaker 2:Yeah well, scan left and right.
Speaker 1:This is very cool. I think that's the smart thing to do, right? Isn't that what you do?
Speaker 2:Left or right?
Speaker 1:Uh-oh, fork, fork in the cave. Nope, can't go that way. All right Back. Wait, that's it. That's it. There's no light coming through that was it. Okay, still very cool. I think that was it Anti-climactic and climatic. I agree, I think that is what it is.
Speaker 2:All right, so we did it. Kenny Heitner, holy shit.
Speaker 1:I just empty my shoe.
Speaker 2:Cave spelunking with imminent danger and risk. Thanks for doing this with me.
Speaker 1:Are you kidding me? Thanks for having me, thanks for being here. So much better than doing it from the couch.
Speaker 2:Which is my first idea Screw the business talk. That was awesome, all right, so back to the business chat All right.
Speaker 1:So I mean, your poor editor is going to have to try to sew this thing together. So I fell into the industry by joining this phone system company that was struggling. They put us into the early days of aggregation, of resale, of long distance and, like any good sales job, I started by making 100 calls, getting hung up on learning how to deal with rejection and not getting paid much. I got paid $300. I negotiated First I was just getting paid for what I killed, right, eat what you kill. And then I negotiated a $300 a week draw. I was living in my parents' basement. It could barely, you know, make ends meet, but stuck with it for eight years. And this gentleman, herb Hirsch, taught me a lot and I always joke and I love you, herb, if you listen to this. He taught me a lot, I think, sometimes more of what not to do than what to do.
Speaker 2:Well, it aren't those the important lessons? Yes, all right. The failure points right. I think we have lost the ability to listen to our elders. We are completely dismissive of those that have learned their lessons before us, and that's ass on eye, if you think about it. Our elders can teach us, and by elders I mean anyone that's older than you in an industry or in life that you're speaking to. They've made your mistakes. You just haven't made them yet. Their job is to help steer you clear of mistakes that they've made.
Speaker 1:And he was in a tough position. So as I look back now maybe that's not even a fair statement, because you know they had coming out of Chapter 11, he had brought in a partner. That wasn't really the greatest choice and it was tough. So I spent eight years again kind of this player of Ole Master of None. It was such a small company that I was the sales guy, the project manager, you know I did some technical stuff and that gave me a really great foundation for understanding the industry. And after eight years I said I want a piece of the company and they said no.
Speaker 2:Wait, you said I want, or did you phrase it slightly differently than that?
Speaker 1:Well, listen, it had been a roller coaster. It was really a very small company. I think in our best year we had done a million, just over a million dollars. So it was really a small company, careful, okay, and yeah, I said I want a piece of the company or I'm leaving, and I was so foolish I would have taken 5, 10 percent, which would have been, you know, a prison sentence, because you have no say in it, you're just. You know, really it doesn't do much, especially in a company that size.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and they said no, so I Did that hurt your relationship and the reason why I'm asking is this has happened to me and I've also done the same thing where you're working so hard, you believe that you have created true intrinsic value for the company and you want a piece of it because that'll be fuel and motivation for you. But you also have this slight feeling like you're going to get screwed in the long run. And I will tell you from the business owner's side there is no bigger turnoff than when an employee comes to you and says I want a piece of the business, because it immediately shocks you. It's always by surprise.
Speaker 1:Yes, again, this was a very small company and I really felt like I was contributing a significant amount and so I didn't feel like it was inappropriate or out of question. And did it hurt my relationship? Actually, it really didn't. Ironically, herb was the best, was in my wedding party, although he was, you know, 10, 15 years older than me, and we today still maintain a great relationship, although I did have to sue the company for commissions. Oh geez Well, but you know, I'm Again. I'm a guy that keeps relationships, that forgives, forgets Maybe not forgets but and very flexible. I understand people have to do what they have to do. People make mistakes and I generally don't hold that against them. I try to rationalize what it would be like to be in their position. And look, that company went out of business a year and a half after I left and I do you know again, maybe egotistical, I feel like that my departure was a significant part of that. There were other factors and but again, herb had introduced me to so many different things in life that I had never seen. He taught me about business and I was young and immature and it was a great ride and a great relationship and I still tremendously value what he did for me and who he is and the love we have for each other.
Speaker 2:That's awesome.
Speaker 1:And we still talk it's great.
Speaker 2:That's great. It's always great to stay in, you know, connected with those that have taught from the past. I still routinely conversate with one of my old bosses that I really looked up to. I consider him a father, paul Bloom. We connect routinely because he really did show me the ropes as a kid Right and how to be a professional Right. So I'm going to throw a word out there, okay, and I'll tell you why at the end, why I'm going to ask it. But tell me about determination how you have, you know, focused your career and become determined throughout your career, and how that led to success.
Speaker 1:So you know, I knew you would ask me something about success, defining it or all those terms.
Speaker 2:Of course.
Speaker 1:And I have to say I think, for the most part, of course, I think as time goes on, you, you, you feel some of your success and it helps, but my determination was more of not to fail. The fear of failing is the greatest motivator of all.
Speaker 2:That is correct. The fear of anything is a motivator, if you choose it.
Speaker 1:Fear.
Speaker 2:Correct Right Fear is drive Okay.
Speaker 1:And so you know, that was the, the impetus, the, the driving force. I didn't have the luxury of money in the bank or any kind of security. I had to succeed.
Speaker 2:Or it's either a feast or famine.
Speaker 1:Or I don't even know if it's feast, but you just want to avoid famine for the long, you know for the period, and then a success builds, then you could look maybe more towards a feast. And I think, you know, we talk about success and maybe some things that we could have done differently, and I think the fear of failing and not having a safety net was also something that held us back a bit, because we didn't take. You know, a lot of people say, oh, you took chances, you moved, but I still think we could have been more aggressive.
Speaker 2:You didn't take the most aggressive, but you had partners, employees, right. You take your biggest risk, starting a business right, and then, as you see success, you either double down or you pause and pull back a little bit. You don't want to break what's working.
Speaker 1:Right, let's look at the. I think the hardest thing in business is working on your business instead of in your business. That's right.
Speaker 2:As a CEO, that is. That is very true. You need to work on the business, not in the business, and if you find yourself working in the business, then the business isn't healthy, not yet. You need to find that health, and that health comes from being able to delegate, hire for roles, improve processes. You need to work on your business in a healthy business.
Speaker 1:Right, and that's the toughest thing, for a lot of people have small businesses, but they can't. They can't again losing the words. Take a break. Delegate. They can't get someone to do what they're doing.
Speaker 2:They can't go on a vacation. By the way, we are panting. Yes, this is about an 800 foot incline. That's it, and Kenny is sprinting up it right now.
Speaker 1:Sometimes I say, is it easier just to get it done with?
Speaker 2:Look at that Kenny the sprinter in our most challenging hike to date.
Speaker 1:Well, I want to get it done with the uphill climb, not the hike. The hike's great.
Speaker 2:The climb is painful, all right. Well, we are on our back nine, so to speak. Well, a little more, maybe the back four, so yeah, so what is your definition of success and are you successful?
Speaker 1:You know, this is the toughest question that you're going to ask me today. I think, and again I heard past. I took a hikes and you said don't tell me your kids.
Speaker 2:Do not tell me your kids or your wife. That automatically is added to the bucket. Unless you hate your kids, then tell me that. No, but I will help you out of that.
Speaker 1:I won't listen to you and tell you that I think for me, when I look at my life, there's a handful of things that define success, but I think first and foremost is my family. You know, married 28 years, three kids that are just terrific human beings. And again, like we talked earlier about, you say things and you don't realize people are absorbing them. I think that's a reflection of who you are. That's right and that's to me more of my legacy than a business or money or anything else. So that's first. But I won't belittle how proud I feel about the success of the company and that we gave hope. And you ask about success and I think one of my other successes is establishing a great network of not just business relationships but loving family, friends that I can count on, and I think that's a big part of what I view in my life as success. I have a tremendous amount of people that I love and trust and count on and I think that's a big part of success. So I would say again, family, children, building the business and providing income for my employees and their families and opportunity.
Speaker 2:Did you feel the burden of being a father figure in your business, since you were the CEO?
Speaker 1:Without question. Every day, every day, I tell my wife when I stopped working, don't you see a difference? The pressure of you know? I always talk about coaching. I coached Little League and I was the manager. I took it so seriously, it was so much pressure. But then when I got a little older and I was the assistant coach, I loved it, because the pressure whether to really win or make sure the kids were all equally cared for mostly went to the manager, not the coaches. And so I look at the company and I say, yeah, I had great partners and great management team, but at the end of the day, if this fails, it's me.
Speaker 2:So there is a lot of pressure and I think it's not really understood and known the type of pressure that we feel as business owners or as C-level executives. The challenge that you often have to deal with is you know there are certain employees or individuals in the company that are gunning for your position or very jealous in a negative way. For instance, there is the it's not fair moments in several individuals' brains where they say it's not fair that I'm working so hard and the CEO gets to drive a Porsche or a Ferrari. It's not fair that I make this money and the CEO makes that much. And I understand those feelings. Those are real feelings. But the challenge is the it's not fair is the wrong mentality. If you have that feeling, then do something about it. Work up the career ladder, have a conversation with a mentor, start your own business, right, right, yeah, if it's not fair to you, go start your own thing, because I can tell you on the other side, it's not fair as an employer to have to think that there are employees that you're giving this opportunity to, that you're constantly grinding to ensure the opportunity. It's not fair on the other side that they have to worry about your it's not fair moment, if that makes sense and that brings a lot of pressure, and it's something you always take with you as a leader. You're always wondering who is not happy and how do you make them that reality or give them a better bubble so they can be happy, because happy employees are great for a business.
Speaker 1:I think one of the challenges that I had to manage through wasn't as much as people begrudging me. I think I was very fortunate People were happy for the leadership of CTI. I know, of course I'm sure there were people that had acts to grinds or envies, but I think mostly it wasn't that and anybody that wanted to get left for a career move. I was thrilled for them because they have to do what's right for them. That's what's most important. That's right and will survive either way. But I think one of the challenges businesses have people have is they're in their own world and they're inward looking. So I can't tell you how many times people came to me and said this guy doesn't do anything and I said oh, that's the worst when you start having tattletales. Well, I don't even know if it was tattling or they just don't understand what that person's doing. They see it from their perspective, from their world, and what they didn't do, not what they did do, and so it was a very dangerous thing that I worked through time and time again explaining people. Well, you don't see what they're doing here. They have a different value, they have a different contribution.
Speaker 2:Yes, so that's the thing too is when you are a lateral employee next to someone else, you might not see the contribution, Whereas from the top down there's more strategy at foot sometimes. So it's the infighting with employees can be very challenging to have to deal with and obviously without saying it, but I will it's very counterproductive. It holds companies back. When you have employees that are just not gelling and jiving, that burden is on the executive team's shoulders. They have to figure out how to make this work.
Speaker 1:Well, it goes back to where we started, which to me, I think the single most important part of a company is culture, and that's what it comes down to.
Speaker 2:The term is overused. It's grossly overused, but it's true. Culture is king when it comes to running a business and your employees. If they align with your business, you will have a better business and your customers will feel it. You mentioned my business before in the very difficult, complex web of telecommunications, historically not known for the greatest of people working in these customer service style roles. I don't mean to insult the people, I just mean the people have been beaten down by monster companies that don't support them. That's the industry. So the challenge how do you make a company in that industry where the people love to work there, right? And the way you do it, culture, take care of those people, support the people that work for you. And also, unfortunately, you have to keep it small. Once you grow too big, everything starts to fall by the wayside. As far as culture, that becomes fake, disingenuous. You're having Hawaiian shirt day, right? Yeah, I always try to do different things.
Speaker 1:You love the surprise with the cave, I always with our marketing. I think part of our marketing. Marketing is internal and external, inward looking and outward, and we put a lot of focus especially early on inward to make sure that our people again are happy and the culture was really of pride in your work and of the organization. And I think I see it much more now, after the fact.
Speaker 2:I could see it more clearly In retrospect yes, in retrospect, you always look back over your life. Where could I have done better? Where did I do well, right, and I think it's really important to take a look back, because that helps you teach others. So what are you up to these days?
Speaker 1:Well, I think I'm over 200 pounds. That's a problem.
Speaker 2:Not after this hike. I guarantee you lost at least four to eight.
Speaker 1:I love that cheesy answer when they say what are you up to? And I go about 200.
Speaker 2:Oh no, I got your joke.
Speaker 1:Yes. So we sold the company a little less than a year and a half ago and we had the earn out for a year or so, so we were sticking around. For that. I thought I was going to stick around longer and on January 1st of this year. Well, they let all the partners go in December pretty much, and that was a little bit surprising. So I said to my wife Would you say you got rift. Private equity drives this. They were looking to make a transaction and they had to align synergies. Some people were angry. I was never angry. I actually think they did me a great favor. But I fully, again, I understand that side the rift. They were cutting costs and they didn't need, or they don't think they need, someone like me in that position.
Speaker 2:Are you upset about that?
Speaker 1:No.
Speaker 2:So it's fuel, fuel to go on.
Speaker 1:Fuel, yes, fuel. Is that what you said, fuel or?
Speaker 2:fuel. I'm using this as fuel. We have a choice. Our brain makes a choice. You take much like these hikes. You have a path, a fork in the road. Do you see anger, white, hot rage? You want to retaliate, no, or do you want to make that decision to a positive channel where you can basically steer your brain into saying I'm going to use this to prove them wrong by doing something else. I'm going to use this to finally go and get that career moving that I wanted to. We have a choice. Rage and anger and negative emotions are a clear choice, whether or not you have realized that or worked on that yet.
Speaker 1:So some of the mistakes I don't know if we talked about mistakes Some of the things that could have done better as a leader. Ceos are supposed to make fast decisions, good decisions. I think I a little too often didn't move quick enough and make those decisions. So in this case, they made the decision for me and, by the way, zero I'm thankful because they put me in a position where I didn't have to make that choice. I look, I'm very indebted. They paid us a lot of money, they were very good to us in the transaction and I wish them a thousand percent of success in the best and that's true and sincere. They let me go. They made that decision and I had zero animosity. Do I think that I could add value there and that they would have been smarter to keep me Again, egotistically? Yes, that's ego, but I don't even think it's just ego. I do, look, they're doing what they're doing. I do think I could add value.
Speaker 2:You could have added value. But here's the thing, though At some point it was no longer your company Right, that that feeling of the high of selling a business would have subsided, and it would have no longer been your decision making capabilities and it would have worn on you. So sometimes, in this case, the decision was made for you. They know better it's the right decision, right, right. And back to what I was saying with the fork in the road. If you accept that this might have been the right decision and use that as fuel and energy, then go do something else, but better, right. So, kenny Heitner, while most people went to work, today I'd say we went to hustle. So thank you for the episode. Thank you for your open candor and your kindness and your ability to seek adventure with me.
Speaker 1:Well, I love adventure. I don't know if the word I love you is a little, it's okay, we live in a good world. Yeah, I do Again. I was flattered that you asked me, and I couldn't have thought of a better way to spend my morning.
Speaker 2:Yeah, as soon as I texted you. It's like you were waiting for this moment, but I will say you were on the list for sure to do a hike with, but also you were heavily requested, so that is an awesome that just shows you how crazy people are. Well, it's humbling for me because it shows that people actually are listening to this and liking it and enjoying it. So as long as people enjoy it, then so do I. There you go, I think it's fantastic.
Speaker 1:I really do. I think it's a great fit for you and I think it's a wonderful thing for the people that come out and do it. I mean, I really enjoyed this.
Speaker 2:Awesome, well, hopefully you take this with you and expand it throughout either teams or your family life, but you don't need a mic and a mountain, you just need to do it. So, with that being said, thank you, thank you Darren. Next time on. I Took a Hike. We stride with Mark Friedman in e-commerce and Marketing Pro. Until next time, I'm Darren Mas. Thanks for listening.
